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Post by Dunwik on Aug 21, 2021 21:53:45 GMT
Was his Alemannisch that rusty? Clarke blinked once, then looked at the translator, and calmly told him that if his accent was particularly poor this day, it was only due to the dry air, and that his apologies were most sincere.... in Alemannisch. He smiled though, and handed off a flask."Of course, my friend. Drink," he offered calmly "it is a tradition in Dunwik to give gifts - you will not find a Dunwikki diplomat without something to offer. I would like to ask though, what we are doing specifically to counter the threat of Communism, which I fear will destabilize us far more than even the D.O.C.. The former seek our outright deaths to usher in their system, while the latter do not." After speaking his piece, he decided to wait for the others to ask questions as he went over the benefits and ramifications of joining in his head... but seeing the Tholish prince take only a sip of his alcoholic beverage and then put it down, Clarke wondered. His Tholish was only on the level of basic conversation, but he got the gist and he handed off another drink.
He didn't mind giving away these drinks. Any man here would hopefully associate Dunwik with pleasant, smooth beverages and friendly men in clean suits - and would thus be more interested in trade. He was here to make friends, first and foremost.
Dunwik, friend to all.
Taking a nice sip of the drink, the diplomat felt a tad more at ease. 'To put it simply, we are ensuring that the communist will never be able to attack one of us and that none of us will ever be so economically weak so as to make their "alternative" seem preferable. Military support, good trade, and a promise of partnership is what we are using to stop communism.' Clarke paused for a moment, trying to think of the proper words to use."The issue being that in every case we have seen of a Communist nation, it was not imposed there by an outside invader, but rather by the common rabble being deluded into rebellion against their governments. I do not believe it is a matter of simple economic strength that will dictate these rebellions, but rather a measure of how willing the people are to believe that the ideology will get them something better," he explained "thus, any anti-Communist alliance would best be specialized in quelling internal threats, rather than warding off an external invader." There was something else that was amiss. Now was the time to voice his concern."But my principal worry is that, with this being a militarily binding treaty, we may inspire the D.O.C. and the Communists to form similar negotiations, either openly or in secret, and then, when hostilities do erupt, the entire world will be bathed in blood," he predicted "because tensions can only go so high before war comes, and in twenty years, we may have leaders who are not so wise, and who engage in open hostilities. If there is a legal requirement, it will do naught, I fear, but effectively turn minor conflicts between minor powers into global conflicts between global powers, and the death toll - and the toll to our own peace and profit, would be immeasurably worse for it."
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Post by Wilhelm Cransnikov on Aug 21, 2021 22:08:24 GMT
Ludwig content so far with the proceedings took a sip of the Dunwikki drink and struggled to keep a straight face and not gag from the tangy strange taste of the drink offered. Feigning clearing his throat as he coughed he rose and addressed the final matter of discussion, "Preferential treatment what will that entail?"
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Post by Fleischmann on Aug 21, 2021 22:25:24 GMT
Taking a nice sip of the drink, the diplomat felt a tad more at ease. 'To put it simply, we are ensuring that the communist will never be able to attack one of us and that none of us will ever be so economically weak so as to make their "alternative" seem preferable. Military support, good trade, and a promise of partnership is what we are using to stop communism.' Clarke paused for a moment, trying to think of the proper words to use."The issue being that in every case we have seen of a Communist nation, it was not imposed there by an outside invader, but rather by the common rabble being deluded into rebellion against their governments. I do not believe it is a matter of simple economic strength that will dictate these rebellions, but rather a measure of how willing the people are to believe that the ideology will get them something better," he explained "thus, any anti-Communist alliance would best be specialized in quelling internal threats, rather than warding off an external invader." There was something else that was amiss. Now was the time to voice his concern."But my principal worry is that, with this being a militarily binding treaty, we may inspire the D.O.C. and the Communists to form similar negotiations, either openly or in secret, and then, when hostilities do erupt, the entire world will be bathed in blood," he predicted "because tensions can only go so high before war comes, and in twenty years, we may have leaders who are not so wise, and who engage in open hostilities. If there is a legal requirement, it will do naught, I fear, but effectively turn minor conflicts between minor powers into global conflicts between global powers, and the death toll - and the toll to our own peace and profit, would be immeasurably worse for it." Steeling himself, the representative responded to these hard hitting questions. 'The prosperity of the state ought to translate into the prosperity of the people. If we enable trade to flourish, those markets which produce certain goods more cheaply than yours will be able to offer said goods to you at a reduced cost to your consumers, which in turn should help increase consumer spending and buying power. This also helps us, as it means that production of certain goods and extraction of resources do not need to be as limited as they have been, as we would no longer have to worry about suppressing our own prices to the point of no longer making a profit and over saturating our own home markets.' 'While it is true that the people tend to impose communism upon themselves, it is also true that the communists are currently fighting wars to forcibly re-unify the empire they themselves destroyed in Rodina. That, as I see it, is nothing but a warning of things to come. If they can not win us over with lies and honeyed words, then they will come eventually with guns and sabres. To add to this, I must point out that any unwise leaders that try to start wars in a world full of defensive coalitions, would be self-correcting problems. As this is a defensive coalition we ask for, there can be no unwise men starting massive wars, as they would stand on their own for their aggressions.'
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Post by Fleischmann on Aug 21, 2021 22:29:07 GMT
Ludwig content so far with the proceedings took a sip of the Dunwikki drink and struggled to keep a straight face and not gag from the tangy strange taste of the drink offered. Feigning clearing his throat as he coughed he rose and addressed the final matter of discussion, "Preferential treatment what will that entail?" 'More standardised measurements and labelling between us, expedited processing of permits, easier cargo inspections, and preferential access to ports. These things would not only help usher in a golden age of commerce, but also help to end uncertainties around foreign products by holding them to a standard we all abide by. Rather than having to worry about conforming to the regulations of ten countries or making separate packaging and products for them, companies will simply be able to follow the regulations and standards of the Hansa and be ready to ship to any of the member states.'
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Post by Wilhelm Cransnikov on Aug 21, 2021 22:34:05 GMT
Ludwig content so far with the proceedings took a sip of the Dunwikki drink and struggled to keep a straight face and not gag from the tangy strange taste of the drink offered. Feigning clearing his throat as he coughed he rose and addressed the final matter of discussion, "Preferential treatment what will that entail?" 'More standardised measurements and labelling between us, expedited processing of permits, easier cargo inspections, and preferential access to ports. These things would not only help usher in a golden age of commerce, but also help to end uncertainties around foreign products by holding them to a standard we all abide by. Rather than having to worry about conforming to the regulations of ten countries or making separate packaging and products for them, companies will simply be able to follow the regulations and standards of the Hansa and be ready to ship to any of the member states.' "And this would be determined by a vote in the Hansa council?"
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Post by Fleischmann on Aug 21, 2021 22:35:42 GMT
'More standardised measurements and labelling between us, expedited processing of permits, easier cargo inspections, and preferential access to ports. These things would not only help usher in a golden age of commerce, but also help to end uncertainties around foreign products by holding them to a standard we all abide by. Rather than having to worry about conforming to the regulations of ten countries or making separate packaging and products for them, companies will simply be able to follow the regulations and standards of the Hansa and be ready to ship to any of the member states.' "And this would be determined by a vote in the Hansa council?" 'Precisely so. Our national governments would send people to represent them and act on their behalf on the council and then the council would help sort matters out between them.'
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Post by tomor on Aug 21, 2021 22:48:41 GMT
Clarke paused for a moment, trying to think of the proper words to use."The issue being that in every case we have seen of a Communist nation, it was not imposed there by an outside invader, but rather by the common rabble being deluded into rebellion against their governments. I do not believe it is a matter of simple economic strength that will dictate these rebellions, but rather a measure of how willing the people are to believe that the ideology will get them something better," he explained "thus, any anti-Communist alliance would best be specialized in quelling internal threats, rather than warding off an external invader." There was something else that was amiss. Now was the time to voice his concern."But my principal worry is that, with this being a militarily binding treaty, we may inspire the D.O.C. and the Communists to form similar negotiations, either openly or in secret, and then, when hostilities do erupt, the entire world will be bathed in blood," he predicted "because tensions can only go so high before war comes, and in twenty years, we may have leaders who are not so wise, and who engage in open hostilities. If there is a legal requirement, it will do naught, I fear, but effectively turn minor conflicts between minor powers into global conflicts between global powers, and the death toll - and the toll to our own peace and profit, would be immeasurably worse for it." Steeling himself, the representative responded to these hard hitting questions. 'The prosperity of the state ought to translate into the prosperity of the people. If we enable trade to flourish, those markets which produce certain goods more cheaply than yours will be able to offer said goods to you at a reduced cost to your consumers, which in turn should help increase consumer spending and buying power. This also helps us, as it means that production of certain goods and extraction of resources do not need to be as limited as they have been, as we would no longer have to worry about suppressing our own prices to the point of no longer making a profit and over saturating our own home markets.' 'While it is true that the people tend to impose communism upon themselves, it is also true that the communists are currently fighting wars to forcibly re-unify the empire they themselves destroyed in Rodina. That, as I see it, is nothing but a warning of things to come. If they can not win us over with lies and honeyed words, then they will come eventually with guns and sabres. To add to this, I must point out that any unwise leaders that try to start wars in a world full of defensive coalitions, would be self-correcting problems. As this is a defensive coalition we ask for, there can be no unwise men starting massive wars, as they would stand on their own for their aggressions.' And what if all see them self as the defenders? Take for example a purely hypothetical example of someone from royalty going into an unruly province and getting shoot by an nationalist from an minor neighbouring power. This would of course be seen as an act of war or at the very least an provocation so the defensive pack sees them self in the right to retaliate. But the minor nation itself is in an defensive pact which in turn sees them self in the right to help their fellow against the "invader". It would be a true bloodbath.
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Post by Fleischmann on Aug 21, 2021 23:08:08 GMT
Steeling himself, the representative responded to these hard hitting questions. 'The prosperity of the state ought to translate into the prosperity of the people. If we enable trade to flourish, those markets which produce certain goods more cheaply than yours will be able to offer said goods to you at a reduced cost to your consumers, which in turn should help increase consumer spending and buying power. This also helps us, as it means that production of certain goods and extraction of resources do not need to be as limited as they have been, as we would no longer have to worry about suppressing our own prices to the point of no longer making a profit and over saturating our own home markets.' 'While it is true that the people tend to impose communism upon themselves, it is also true that the communists are currently fighting wars to forcibly re-unify the empire they themselves destroyed in Rodina. That, as I see it, is nothing but a warning of things to come. If they can not win us over with lies and honeyed words, then they will come eventually with guns and sabres. To add to this, I must point out that any unwise leaders that try to start wars in a world full of defensive coalitions, would be self-correcting problems. As this is a defensive coalition we ask for, there can be no unwise men starting massive wars, as they would stand on their own for their aggressions.' And what if all see them self as the defenders? Take for example a purely hypothetical example of someone from royalty going into an unruly province and getting shoot by an nationalist from an minor neighbouring power. This would of course be seen as an act of war or at the very least an provocation so the defensive pack sees them self in the right to retaliate. But the minor nation itself is in an defensive pact which in turn sees them self in the right to help their fellow against the "invader". It would be a true bloodbath. 'I am not sure how that could be a bloodbath or why the government would be considered 'invaders', since they would be putting down a revolt in one of their own provinces. Also, might I add, if one of your provinces is in a defensive pact with others, then we would necessarily have to come to your aid, as trying to spread sedition and foment revolt is most definitely an act of war.'
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Post by Dunwik on Aug 23, 2021 0:17:09 GMT
At the silence that descended over the room, Clarke decided to speak once more. "As much as we would love to enter a mutually beneficial trade agreement, we Dunwikki fear that entering into a military alliance would potentially jeopardize our trade arrangements elsewhere. While we will to the best of our ability abide by the standards of this organization to ease in trade, we cannot risk our international relationships elsewhere by committing too hard to either the D.O.C. or the Hansa. At this moment, we must remain at arm's length. I do not want this to be seen as hostility towards you; quite the opposite, we wish closer relations... but not relations that harm our standing elsewhere. Thus, our involvement will be as it has always been - we will offer open trade to you, and in exchange we hope you offer open trade to us. Dunwik wishes to be a friend to all, but that position means we cannot be tied down too firmly for any one side. As of this juncture, we will not be direct members, but wish to be partners in trade on our own terms. Perhaps, in the future, we will join you, should our geopolitical position necessitate that."
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Post by tomor on Aug 23, 2021 9:58:18 GMT
"We second the Opinion of the Dunwiki Delegation, heel can not risk getting pulled in an war that it could potentially not win, we will of course continue to pay our tribute for protection and hope for plenty of trade with this organisation. We might change our mind in the future but we will see what it holds" They bow and leave the meeting, the Steel from the ship has been sold by now and they leave port for home
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Post by Fleischmann on Aug 23, 2021 18:57:13 GMT
At the silence that descended over the room, Clarke decided to speak once more. "As much as we would love to enter a mutually beneficial trade agreement, we Dunwikki fear that entering into a military alliance would potentially jeopardize our trade arrangements elsewhere. While we will to the best of our ability abide by the standards of this organization to ease in trade, we cannot risk our international relationships elsewhere by committing too hard to either the D.O.C. or the Hansa. At this moment, we must remain at arm's length. I do not want this to be seen as hostility towards you; quite the opposite, we wish closer relations... but not relations that harm our standing elsewhere. Thus, our involvement will be as it has always been - we will offer open trade to you, and in exchange we hope you offer open trade to us. Dunwik wishes to be a friend to all, but that position means we cannot be tied down too firmly for any one side. As of this juncture, we will not be direct members, but wish to be partners in trade on our own terms. Perhaps, in the future, we will join you, should our geopolitical position necessitate that." 'That is unfortunate... Though, if you do maintain the standards set by the organisation, it should ease the way back to this table should you ever change your mind.' A resigned feeling came over the man, as he now feared that the other two would reject the plan as well. He would likely be held responsible for this debacle, even though it was not his fault. Deciding to get this over with now, he turned to address the men from West-Thosel-Cransconia and Sheen. 'As the others have already made up their minds, is there anything that either of your parties would like to bring up or change?'
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Post by Wilhelm Cransnikov on Aug 23, 2021 19:30:08 GMT
"I am content with what is already established."
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Post by xander10 on Aug 23, 2021 20:21:19 GMT
After having sat silently thoughout the whole meeting, Garend Marston finally rose.
It seems we have an impasse around a defensive pact, which is understandable seeing that many here today have never entered such a pact, seeing as my people's founding document is a defensive pact in and of itself, if I may, I have some proposals. I believe we should do two things in this area, firstly we should have the defensive pact only trigger in a clear case of one state invading another member state, and any other grey area war would be up to each individual member if they wish to join, secondly I believe the ability to opt out of the defensive pact would be a good idea, but still provide incentive to join it by giving any member of the pact greater say in the economic side than those who are just in the economic side, perhaps one extra member in a council perhaps?
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Post by Fleischmann on Aug 24, 2021 6:05:51 GMT
After having sat silently thoughout the whole meeting, Garend Marston finally rose.It seems we have an impasse around a defensive pact, which is understandable seeing that many here today have never entered such a pact, seeing as my people's founding document is a defensive pact in and of itself, if I may, I have some proposals. I believe we should do two things in this area, firstly we should have the defensive pact only trigger in a clear case of one state invading another member state, and any other grey area war would be up to each individual member if they wish to join, secondly I believe the ability to opt out of the defensive pact would be a good idea, but still provide incentive to join it by giving any member of the pact greater say in the economic side than those who are just in the economic side, perhaps one extra member in a council perhaps? Sensing an opportunity to salvage the sinking ship that was this meeting, the representative was more than happy to quickly jot down these ideas and add them to the outline of terms that had thus far been proposed and received well. 'Yes, I believe such ideas would be acceptable to my government. If there are no other objections, I would like to ask that we begin drafting the founding document for this organisation.'
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